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Post by Ninja Dathron on May 22, 2012 18:06:55 GMT -5
Hey WW, Orrv and I over at SN have been discussing the Highstat List for a while now, and have decided to take it upon ourselves to try and update it. We felt that all these really old highstats, "held" by players who have not shown up in years, are not worthy of continuing to sit on top of this list. All they seem to do is make it that much harder for anyone today to get a chance at having their name on the list. Add to that the fact that way back when, when many of these items were added to the list, that hacking was prevalent, we can't be sure how many of the items were legitimately found. So, we've begun work on a "new" official Highstat List. We've marked all the items we feel are outdated, and are looking for anyone who feels they have a decently high stat of that item to come forward and add their item to the list. No need to make sure they match or beat those current highstats, since we're replacing them! So anything you think is high, let us know and we'll add it. Someone may beat you, and we'll add that too! But we are simply looking to get the most accurate, and -active- list out there to help feed the competitive fire amongst DCers. Obviously you are under -no- obligation to add your items to this list, or to regard it as official in any way. It's simply something we thought was worth doing, and it's not very useful if we don't get the word out, as then it wouldn't be any different from our clan-only list! So if you are interested in this endeavor, please check out the list here: dathandorrv.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=questing&thread=70&page=1And let us know what items you'd like to put up there, and if it's the highest submitted so far it'll go on! Thanks for looking guys. Hope you like this idea! Dath
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Post by sirinnu on May 23, 2012 7:52:59 GMT -5
hello dath! I remember that we've had a similar discussion in ww some time ago (may be you were active here by this time, I 'm not sure). We didnt stop using the current highstats list for a few reasons. Tough, if most active players today would agree, , I dont mind adopting a new way to compile highestat items. I still have mixed feelings about a new higstats list, , I'll try to summarize my own opinion about it (its only my opinion, and I wish to read opinions from more peops) : PROS: - With a new list more active peops could eventualy see their name on such list. It may be more motivating to quest, and find items for more players. - Erasing these few items that have been suspected of being hacked (not so many tough), , and its not because someone hold a suspected item that the player was the hacker) - Establishing a friendly clan competition between active players from nowadays active clans. - being kind with your initiative, , since as you said, if ww dosent take part in it, , your new higestats list, will just be an SN best items list. Not many players in older (others) clans are questing much, or known to hold such higestats items, so I understand that you need us to take part in it, or your idea would rather be worthless (Or just a copy of your other clan list) CONS: - With current highestats items list, we keep records of DC story as a whole. Its a bridge between dcers of the past and dcers of today. (Its great to know-remember who were the best questers in the past, the biggest clans, , stubborn from SOIA worked hard for years to collect his awesome collection, it would be a shame to just remove his name because today, he isnt active anymore, , I somehow like to safekeep his name in DC story, , as randomorange, or many others great and respected players from the past) - Current highesstats list , was not created by WW. I 've always gave credit, to those who started it in the past, , it helped have bridges between clan leaders, from titan, FK, SOIA, BF, GRYF, DG, (...) when we were consulting each other to make sure that list was accurate, in all these clans. - Its not exact to say that its now impossible to see anymore new names added to this list. Its normal to have to quest more today (Or to b more lucky) as the time goes by, , yet, its still very rewarding to see his name on a renowed list used for many years, in many clans. (When ww started that list was already old, and we were many in WW to quest hard, to find new items, and we were many to succeed at it, , JTB, randomorange, DS, me, and few more). I still believe that it is still possible for any real quester to work hard as we did, to have their name added to that list. - Even if a new highest stat list would kinda format the old the one, to make sure, only the items held by active players stay noted to remove some hacked items from the past, , , its not a guarantee, that more hacked items, or items coming from illegit questing , would reach that new list. It wouldnt really fix that problem. - Some items from the past were traded-gifted to active players, , , so would we keep these? - My main objection (CON) toward a new list is more about, , the subjective way to choose who is active and whos not. The massive work from us to eveluate who shud b on the list, and who shudnt. (not speaking about potential disputes it may raise, and that we dont want to have) As examples; DS was not around at all, in the last months, , so we do not add his items to the list.. But When he does post somewhere, , we would have to re-add his items to the list! Stubbornn returns to say hello, , shud we consider him to be still around, , or someone has to post three times on tp, or being active for 3 weeks in a row, to become avlaible to see his name back on such list? What is considered as being active... If I stop questing because I'm too RL busy will I 'll b contacted telling if I dont post enough (?) my name will be erase from the list? RaistlinM, is active on DG forum, just to rp, , but dosent post on TP or in CH, , is he considered active or not? Someone (already on the list) still log his main character sometimes, , so we would have to keep his name on the list even if he dosent post on any publick forums? These are just few exemples to show how hard, biaised, not objectiv, a new list would have to b, , thus loosing its meaning. Who are we to decide, what is being active?, Shud we request old items to b send to someone to verify ? Its already hard to keep track of all trades to follow, who held each highstats items... it may be easier to start with a new list, for the first days, but on the long run, we would end up with all the same problems that we have today with current list. - My last COn, is about to respect everyone who worked hard to get their names on that renowed list which is a decade old. They wanted to see their name on that old list, and are now remember for this (whether they are still active or not today). Who are we to say : your hard work is now useless in regard of current dc , your name will now be forgotten, because we want a new list of active players only. - and the same problems will occur in a year from now, , having to make sure who will still b active... if killa stops playing in a month or 2, , his name would have to b erased next year. OR we are back using an outdated list in some months, , same old problems we are trying to fix today will still b there . Last time we spoke about it around ww castle, we ended up to continue to use that list who was recognized by the whole dc community, even with his weakness. And even if already at that time, many peops named on the list were inactive. I'm curious to know what other wwers think about all this. I'Ve always kept my own higestats list , , this one being my personnal favorite. I know I've quested hard to get each items on it (even if they arent as great as what the whole community was able to gather in 15 years). Shud we need to have a ww clan highstats list? Perhaps, as long it dosent lead to a bad competition between our respective clans. ---------- This is indeed a legitimate topic to discuss, , and I dont want to b alone to discuss it, , all wwers opinion is important, , and I will gladly adopt what we would choose to do (continue to use the old and recognized list even if it is over 10 years old, , join dathron suggestion, to have a new highesstat list from the few active players left in this game , and all the work it implies to keep it updated , or start our own ww clan highesstats list)
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Unknown
Honored Warrior
HW2
Mr. Pie Eater
Posts: 11,755
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Post by Unknown on May 23, 2012 9:24:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't object to having two highstat lists. Certainly we wouldn't want to get rid of the old, renowned list. The reasons for having a new one are good, and I'm sure we could come up with ways to make it work. I think Dathron already hinted at one, everyone would have to submit their highstats. It wouldn't necessarily be an entirely "active" list a year from now, but it's a good chance to refresh, and surely hacking is much, much less common than it used to be. I like the idea, and if I had anything even remotely highstat, I'd let you know. Maybe I'll drop by sometime and see if there's anything I can beat. Hmm...now that I've actually gone to the post and seen the list, I think even better of the idea. Basically it's keeping the same list, but the old ones are in orange. So you pretty much have two lists, the old, inactive players (items that essentially aren't "in-game" anymore), as well as the new ones. Did I understand that right, Dathron?
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Post by Ninja Dathron on May 23, 2012 10:32:02 GMT -5
Sirinnu:
First off, in addition to updating the list, we have an "Archived" list, which is a copy of how the list looks currently. That will be kept on our site right along the updated one, so everyone can still see those names and nobody will be forgotten.
About determining who's active, this was the easiest part. I marked in orange every name who had not been around for a -very- long time, or if they had been around relatively recently, they had made it clear they were quitting and hadn't been seen since. These highstats in orange will be replaced by active ones once someone has submitted them. How do I know they're active ones? Because they re-confirmed its existence themselves. Obviously it's not perfect, these highstats will eventually become inactive as well, but considering this list has held inactive names for many, many years, I assume we won't feel the need to update this next list for another 4 or 5 years at least.
I'm keeping the part that credits who started the list, and plan on simply adding one saying something like "these players from these clans began work on updating this list at this time."
To again address your concern about inactive items: If someone like Stubbornn actually showed up at one point, yes he could be considered active, but ONLY if he found a copy of the new updated list, saw his stuff wasn't on there, checked his storages/the Archive list to see what stuff it was, and re-confirmed. Sure, it's work for him. And if he's not really coming back, he may decide it's not worth the trouble since the Archive list still has his name, and he won't bother. But if he's REALLY gonna be active, at least for a little while, re-confirming his highstats would be a small price to pay to get his name back on the list.And you said, "Who are we to say : your hard work is now useless in regard of current dc , your name will now be forgotten, because we want a new list of active players only." If a player has been gone for 3-4 years at least, their name IS forgotten. And for good reason: they left! Now, obviously they're not completely forgotten, plenty of vets remember these players, and their names are on the current highstat list, but really a lot of players nowadays don't know these people. And again, this is partially covered by having the Archive list. But honestly, I'm not scared about -possibly- insulting a few players from a decade ago who DON'T EVEN PLAY ANYMORE. If they don't play anymore, they won't see this anyway. And the Archive list will keep them remembered. And they can always reconfirm their stuff if by some miracle they return.
Another point about making it active: I'm not going to try to check every month or something, and take people off if they didn't post recently. I know this new list will get outdated as well at some point, but I feel like it's better to have people who are a few months or a year outdated on the list than people who haven't been around for a decade. Sure we're doing a great job at remembering a few people from WAY back, but this would help us remember people from our current times who might have to leave for a bit. With this current list they may have something close to, but not quite, a highstat. Giving them the spot instead of the really old fogies gives us a way to remember them as well.
Unknown, I already covered it in my response to Sirinnu, but you're pretty close on how it works: The orange ones will in fact be removed once people submit new highstats, BUT there is an Archived List with everything as it was before we decided to take this on. So hopefully the best of both worlds, we get our new updated list, while not forgetting the old players.
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Post by Dragon_Stalker on May 28, 2012 1:40:51 GMT -5
jackthebear.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=5477I preferred the format that I had for the highest stats...mainly because of the look and organization of it. (Obviously I've not been around to update it for the last few months of great finds). I've been a proponent of deleting JJ_Smokes-related highstat items because there is strong reasons to believe they never were legit DC items. That has less to do with the list being old/historic than it does about including fraudulent items. About making separate lists that denote active/inactive players...I'm not sure how helpful that is. I share the same concerns that Sirinnu does, about returning players (since it happens so very often in this game, we see vets return any given month). I personally thought the BEST idea for a new highest stats thread was the clan specific one that SN developed around the time they started their clan. That was a very up-to-date list (being a newly made clan, the items were certain to still exist). If Dathron/Orrv7 want to compile their own list, making their own criteria, they have the ability and right to do so. I'm not sure this is a project that W&W should endorse...knowing that the list has been that way for such a long time. As much as I'd love to see other names on that list besides Stubborrn (believe me, I've tried to get his name off of the list as hard as I could), it seems appropriate to see his name there. I'm more content deleting his or other older players names one at a time, as NEW highest stats are found. The only reason I'm a proponent of deleting JJ_Smokes items is because it's impossible to beat such ridiculously fake items. At least with Stubborrns or Randomoranges items they are beatable. If W&W were to endeavor for any new highstat project, it should be to FIND NEW ONES!!! Or else, to borrow SN's brilliant idea of a clan specific highest stat list (this would naturally lend itself to more "active" players, being that our clan is generally active). Just my 2 cents! GL to SN with their new highstats project.
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Post by Ninja Dath on May 28, 2012 12:44:04 GMT -5
JJ's items are very likely fake and should come off. At least we're in agreement there.
I still don't get the concern about returning players honestly, and I'd like to hear more about it to see if maybe I'm somehow missing something. If a player returns, it's completely under their power to repost their highstats. And the archive list keeps their names in existence forever, it's simply a way of giving people another reason to go out and quest.
I think of it as two different ways of viewing the list: do we use the list as something like baseball stats, where records stay until someone breaks them later on, or do we try to use the list as a record of the best stuff out there RIGHT NOW, to recognize players who actually still play. The first way has a lot of nice nostalgia and it seems like that's the way you guys want to play it. I just don't know if that's the best thing for DC.
Dragon Court has plenty of history. The fact that the game itself is so incredibly outdated means we're basically a living relic. But because everything is so old, we are losing players every year, and the community has not grown substantially in a long while (although the fact that it hasn't dramatically decreased in the last year or two could be taken as a positive). Almost all DC is is history. Continuing a highstat list that is similarly old and dusty, which contains a ton of items that current players have no chance in hell to beat (sure technically they're beatable, but many have stayed on for over a decade, that's pretty much the definitive sign that they're staying for a loooong time), seems to me to do nothing besides remind us of what once was. But we all want DC to continue, we want it to grow and someday get updated. Both SN and WW want to get more new members who are excited to play this game, to get more new blood and of course all of us dream sometimes of Dragon Court being actually a -popular- game, where 5-10 clans are vying every day for new members and where forums get 100 new posts a day without blinking twice. To me, the current Highstat List is nothing but an old relic, that once players realize is virtually unbeatable, does nothing but discourage new players from questing. Now of course any new Highstat List will also quickly be taken up by items that are very difficult to beat, but there will also be a lot of items that are suddenly more reachable, and knowing that nearly every name on the list is someone you could contact, possibly about them trading you their highstats, would be a positive thing.
My worry is that DCers too often worry about offending old players that no longer play, rather than about encouraging new players to stay interested. Keeping the current Highstat List does little for any new player, except as a historical reference (which the Archive List provides just as well), but it's the preferable option to most old players who have their names on the list, and to people who knew those players well. Sure, us vets who know anything is possible, who have had enough patience to continue playing this game for years, knows that if they focus hard and long enough on an item, they might actually beat one of these old highstats. But what younger player wants to do that? To spend months trying to knock off an old name of a player who doesn't even care about this game anymore? I know I had completely given up on ever finding a highstat, unless I felt like trying to get some of the wheel items, and I'm not exactly a new player myself.
This is just a game. And yet many of us are attached to it, and would like it to continue. I hope to see this game still being played five years from now, even if I'm only checking in infrequently. If I've quit between now and then, I wouldn't expect people to still be caring about what items I had (tbh I'll probably have given them all away anyway), and would fully support seeing a new list involving the more current players. At this point in DC's life, we need to step away from the past and find new players so that it will still exist in 5 years, maybe even make it another decade. I personally feel like moving on from its past is a big step towards keeping the game alive. Not leaving the past, but giving the future some room to exist as well. If all we do is worry about keeping players that don't play happy, we'll never be able to give newer players a chance to enjoy the game the same way.
W&W is under no obligation to recognize this list, of course. I hoped the clan would find it an exciting new endeavor, and I know that a few of your members have already been adding their name to the list. If you feel that this is something to dismiss, that's your prerogative, no hard feelings. And you have our Ninja Blessing to use our clan highstat idea if you so choose. We just wanted to let you guys know about this list, and would love it if at some point you felt it was something worth working on. It would mean a lot for us to have WW be part of this list. Just as the original list was a multi-clan project, we hoped that this new list would be a similar group project. Thanks for giving it a look, and we wish you all the best.
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Post by Stalat on May 28, 2012 13:29:55 GMT -5
At first I thought that this might be a good idea, and I have added a few items ot the list over at Shadow Ninjas so I am as guilty as anyone else, but as DS said I'd like to see my name on the list as I beat someone elses list. For example I found a 56a Elf Bow the other day. Now as far as I know this is the highest one found in a while however it is just 1 tier(maybe 2) from being tied for high stat. I can say I've found a highstat but in my mind, and in reality whether the item exists or not there has been a higher stat. Finding something that beats the current highstat but doesn't beat the item on the archive list doesn't seem like I've found a high stat, just a high tiered item atleast in my opinion.
If you guys want to have a list over at Shadow Ninjas denoting the current high stats I guess that is your guy's right as a clan, I however must stick to the old high stat list as a reference point, not because if an old player comes back and it hurts the feelings or what not, that has no bearing on it, but simply because "most" of those items are the real high stats.
Now, if we wanted to remove the items that have been questioned as legit I'd be all for that, however as much as I'd rather see my name on the list than Stubborrns I want to do it the right way. Stubborrn may not be an active player anymore but he did find some of the highest tier items that we have seen.
I can understand that you want to make this interesting for new players to see their name on the list, but it isn't right that they haven't had to work as hard at finding the items as say Stubborrn or Randomorange. All those players who are no longer active but hold highstats put in the effort to find items, new players should do that. Saying an item is unbeatable is simply false, a player just needs to denote the time to finding that item and they may be pleasantly suprised.
Anyway that's what I think about the issue, and I stand behind the idea of having the highstat list that we currently do. I much favor the list DS created as it's simple, clean, and easy to locate things.
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Post by Ninja Dath on May 28, 2012 15:20:12 GMT -5
Stalat, Stubbornn for sure, and Random most likely, traded for the majority of their highstats. It might have started by questing for some, but for Stub at least, it was almost primarily a traded-for collection. His highstats do not reflect his questing nearly as much as they reflect how he could convince other players to trade him their highstats.
These highstats might be "real" but they are virtually unbeatable. You will probably never beat that Elf Bow highstat unless you send 20 alts there every day for a year, only killing Elves. And as proven by you recently finding a 56a Elf Bow that is nearly as high as the current highstat, it's not like this will be a list so easy to get onto that it loses its meaning.
The Archive List will still exist. You will still know when you beat a "real" highstat.
A lot of these items may in fact not at all exist anymore. Many of those players have been gone long enough to have been reaped.
I'm really not seeing much of an explanation as to why anyone wants to keep the old list other than they're afraid of change. =\
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Post by sirinnu on May 28, 2012 15:55:00 GMT -5
I might not have been clear in one of my point in previous post, , but I also wanted to ask, why the list goal have to change...?
til today highestats list was about *higestats items found in DC so far*, , while I understand that dathron's project, is not about it, , but rather a new higesstats list; *higestats items owned by active players*... The meaning is different in these 2 cases.. So I'm a little more inclined today to adopt it, knowing it is not a way to replace the old list, but rather an whole new and different project...
I still feel it would be alot of work, to contact everyone, ask the returner everytime, if they want to keep their name on the new higestats project ; verify regularly, who is still active, and whos not , and so on.
I understand your concern dath about giving a chance to newer player to someday see theyr names on such list. Yet, Many higestats items, that I or DS own, are just 1 or 2 tiers below the old higstats list, , it wouldnt be much easier at all for newer players, to beat these. And the first time I saw the higestats list, I tough, (as most new players I guess): these are incredible stats I could never beat! yet, with patience, perseverance (and a bit of luck) , I was able to find a few... just as anyone still can today.
I feel the same as you that jj 's items have always been suspected, of not being legit ones. (Its 3-4 items, , I wouldnt call the whole old list dusty for only 1% of arguing items, while pretty much all else, are still uptodate,, even if not all the owners are reachable)
beside that I dont think the old list hold much hacked items. But I understand that some items may have been reaped with the character storing em by now. Yet, they were respected players, who worked hard to get legit items , , wich will (shud) remains the higest of each kind, , til someone of today beat em...
I bet that we differ about past-and future of dc. We've always try hard around ww to maintain bridges between old players and new ones, between old clans and new ones. Even if we could have tried some years ago, to just focus on moving on (since for some years ww was the only clan with active questers ) and restart everything with new ideas, and try to make all dc adopt our ideas, , ,but we ve always decided to rather be inspired by the first generations of dcers rather than restart everything our way a new.
I still have to think more about all this... (and or read more inputs from other dcers wwers or not)
One last side note... higestats list never pretended to hold all the truth, , its only, and always only been a reference, from a large amount of dcers a decade ago, , but not necessarly ALL dcers.. (I've heard of items beating the stats on official list, but the player, just didnt want to get involved in such list, prefering to play in dc boundaries rather than becoming a public player... Same comment will certainly apply to any new list... We cant force anyone to adopt what the rest of the community want, even when most clans would agree to join a commun project..
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Post by Ninja Dathron on May 28, 2012 17:14:08 GMT -5
Yes, it is good to think of it as a different project and I'm fine renaming things to make everyone happier. By dusty, I didn't mean just the hacked items, but items owned by people like stubbornn who have not been contacted in multiple years. If we named things differently, like naming them the Active list and the Prestige list, or something. Prestige would include all old names, except for JJ's items, and would still be updated of course if anyone found a new highstat to that list. The Active list would include items that are also on the Prestige list IF they have been recently confirmed or are held by recently active players. Following up on this COULD be tough, but I have some ideas to minimize the work on that, which I can talk with specifically with anyone who would be helping out to keep that updated. But the difference on the Active list would be that it is able to recognize higher stat items held by current players. There may not be huge differences from each list, since as you said Sir, you and DS have a lot of near highstats already. But it would show WHO has those other "near" highstats, and would give new players both an idea of who to trade with if they want a highstat, and generally which current players currently have a nice stash. I know I would look at the highstat list to see who is currently the owner of certain items, back when it had more active players, so I could pester them about trading. Maybe this way of stating it has more interest to some? I think it could be a fun inter-clan project to work on building an Active highstat list, at the very least. And I understand the desire to honor older players, so maybe we can find a compromise rather than throwing this idea outright.
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Post by Dragon_Stalker on May 28, 2012 23:29:07 GMT -5
This all just sounds like a fancy way of getting different names on the *showoff what you got* list. This won't really help newer players any more than the current highest stat list since, as you pointed out, a few select names might be found for every slot of weapon that there is.
I'm not trying to sound too braggy about this, but if W&W does this project I'd like for my name NOT to be included on the list. I dont want players to see me as the new Stubborrn (some guy who's not around anymore and just sits lazily on his stockpile of horded items that are difficult to beat). And even though Dathron or other players might like to know who to contact to trade for such items, I personally don't have the desire to be pestered about items all the time (this already happens quite alot). I cannot affect what SN does with their list, but I won't be submitting my highest stat items for this project. Maybe someday, if my goal is to make other players jealous, I'll change my mind and post my *Personal* highest stat list. I don't know of any NEW players who really have much chance to beat any of my items than they do the already highest stat ones (only being a tier or few differences). This project might help recognizing some adept players that aren't yet on that list, but I dont see it helping newbs the way Dathron expects. There would have been a day that I would bite at the bits to showoff my whole collections...but it's just seems arrogant to kick some of these "inactive" names off the list so that I could put my name in 10-20 more slots of items.
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Post by sirinnu on May 29, 2012 0:33:40 GMT -5
Its late here, but I still want to add a little something to this topic...
If the goal is really to give a chance to newer players to see their names on such new list of active players best items, , I think I would do as DS, and not get involved myself. I'm far away from showing off myself the best stuff I have found in 15 years of questing + I would hate if this new list would turn into something were one clan (WW) would replace many players and older clans. I would still invite all wwers interested to get involved to do so. Its indeed fun to aim for such goal, and compare personnal results with others... I still hang around dc to help people enjoy it, not to see em envy me and 2-3 other wwers very addict questers (I did have some fun showing off years ago, while I was more competitiv, , today I stick around dc for other reasons, , again, to make new people motivated to quest!
so if that new list aim such noble goal, , I 'm glad to hear that ds isnt interested to b seen on it, , and I would too refrain myself.
This would work only if some of us are willing to take part in it tough... I hope more of us would share their position and opinion about this
Anyway, anyone shud be proud of their personnal best finds even if they may seems far from any list! After all, high items are just one way to enjoy DC!
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Post by Stalat on May 29, 2012 10:58:23 GMT -5
Well Dathron already knows my position on it from my earlier post, and while I don't have the items that DS or Sirinnu does, I would like my name left off the list as well. It doesn't seem right my name replacing names that have "true" highstats on any list.
Thanks
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Post by leoknight on May 29, 2012 13:26:27 GMT -5
I thought I would come in and give my opinion.
Honestly, things are being far overstated. SN wants to put up two lists, call 'em whatever you like, and It's fair to everyone. The details of them seems sound to me. On the off chance a player returned from an extended absence they would still see their names and items. One one list whilst Active players will get to see there names on and off the active lists. This will certainly promote playing amongst those that like that competitiveness. Win-Win.
On the off chance that some like stubborn, RO or the like return, I doubt seriously they would take offense to this. I would not have taken offense had my name been up there with my items that I spent 8 years collecting.
If you don't want to participate in the active list then don't. problem solved. A copy of both should be posted in DC. one in the tavern- Active. and one in the tome of history-the "Prestige"- to my mind. When we are opposed to something we must check ourselves. Am I being Prideful? Or Arrogant? Afraid of change no matter what that change is?
A current time, updated list will benefit all those who are active, thats the goal isn't it? to make the game fun to be played? Engaging?
Early gamers are honored by the other list and this is much more than you get from most any other game.
LK/WD
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Post by sirruss on May 29, 2012 18:45:33 GMT -5
Im with Leo on this...
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